Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Sorry. I always laugh because we. I just hit record. I should have hit record 10 minutes ago. We've been having this fun conversation. I know. I'm like, stop, stop, stop.
Hit record and go. Welcome Elizabeth Heider. It's great to have you here.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: So I'm Bradley Charbonneau. Is Elizabeth Heider. We are here basically, for starters, we are both part of a conference. This writers conference put on by Storyhouseworks and Hannah Huber in Amsterdam on March 20, 2025, which is the day after tomorrow.
So if you're watching this before that time, today is also for you a little teaser of what's to come on Thursday, because both Elizabeth and I will be on stage and in different forms, which is interesting, what we're both talking about. And also if you're watching after that, well, hopefully it's inspiring for you as an aspiring author or, like, the stuff we were just talking about. Elizabeth just said, my editor thought my second book was just weird.
I thought was so cool because, like, then as an inexperienced writer, you might say, oh, then you quit everything and you stopped and you decided to work at Home Depot. Right?
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I mean, and this is kind of the process you and I are talking about is like, do we. And this was the cool conversation, as, you know, like, if you're looking at the market before you start writing a book, like, how much of it should you be doing that? Should you be, like, writing what you're passionate about and just going towards it? Or should you look and say, like, what market exists? And then should I backtrack and reverse engineer and then write the book that fits the market? Right. So that's the discussion that you and I were having about that.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: So what did you do? What was your process like for the books that you wrote?
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Well, here's another teaser for Thursdays, because I'm talking with Janet Margot, who is an Amazon expert, and she worked at Amazon in this. Not. She didn't, like, wasn't in delivery truck. She worked at. She was in kdp. And the book art and all about help, basically helping authors sell books. Right. How can authors sell more books? Which of course means how can Amazon sell more books? But how can authors sell more books? And so she knows it from sort of the other side of the camera, so to speak, of how books sell and why books sell and what works and what doesn't. So what we're talking about on what Janet and I are talking about on Thursday is sort of what's your. Why, why are you writing your book? Just like you were just saying, Elizabeth, about, you know, are you writing it because it's a passion project? Is it just for fun? Or is it because I want to sell a million books every half hour or I want to be an expert in my field or whatever? But that's what we're talking. Because honestly, when I first started, I didn't care about any of that stuff. I just wanted to have fun and write a silly book. And so that's why I really resonate with you saying my editor thought my second book was weird.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: She did. Well, she had totally weird books. Like, this is so the book that I just published this last year, May the Wolf Die. That was the. I was just counting. I think it's the seventh book I've written in total.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: So it isn't even.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: I'm happy to hear you say that.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah. No, no, no. And I really is, like, I mean, early on when I first, I mean, I wrote my first book when I was like, 21 or something, you know, and I really wanted to get it published. And, like, I'm really glad I didn't, you know, because I learned a lot process. But I look back and I'm like, oh, you know, I've written. I've really sort of learned from that process. But you were talking about. So I got, so I, I, I was able to fortunate enough to get an agent. Um, her name is Sharon Pelletier, and she's in New York City. Um, so I got her in 2020. So it was with a book that I'd written that did not get published because. And we worked on it. We did it. She was an editorial agent. We did a lot of edits. We went out for submission. Nobody picked it up. Um, but I learned a lot from that too, because, like, the comments that I was getting back from the editors that were rejecting this, like, had some really relevant comments about pacing and structure. And so that kind of like, made me start thinking about, okay, what am I missing? How do I learn that skill? Skill, right. And so I started educating myself on that. And then I wrote another book, which I really wanted to write, and I sent it to her, and she was just like, I don't know what to do with this. She's like, I really. No, no. She was really, really kind about it, but she was kind of like, I hate it. You know?
You know, she was like, I don't like this. And I was just like, oh, man. I saw. So we had a little conversation about that. But then I had to think. I was like, you know, do I regret writing it? Like, no. Like, I. I loved that book and I was really happy that I wrote it, you know, and so it's on and it exists in the world and maybe I pick it up in some other form, you know, but I also learned a lot from writing it. And so when I. Then all of the stuff that I learned from all my previous writing, I was able to sort of really figure out a lot about structure and storytelling and how do I do pacing and character development and when do you pull things into the story? And so that's what I ended up incorporating all of that when I wrote May the Wolf Die. And then that was traditionally published by Penguin, and it did actually. It's been really critically acclaimed this last year. So it was a great place to start my writing career, you know, my public career.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: But it's. But I mean, I've been writing my whole life, and so. Yeah, yeah. But it is kind of that, like, how do you decide where you're going to invest your time and, you know, you're going to write books and have them not get published and.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah, basically, you know, because my question would be like, you know, when do you give up? After how many rejections and all that stuff? And you always hear about the big names.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Why would you ever give up? But why would you give up? Right. If this is what you love. Right.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: That's the. That's the pure artist speaking. Right. Because I'm the same way. I. There are times I. Oh, I never forget.
I don't know if, you know Wayne Dyer, so. Wayne Dyer, Yeah. So he. He decided he had this. He had written, like, 40 books. And he makes this big proclamation, like, publicly. He says, like, I'm done with writing. I'm never going to write again. I've written enough books. I'm moving on, and I'm never going to write again. And the very next morning, it's like 6am he's like, I can't not do it. Yeah, I can't not do it. I just.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Are you supposed to stop me? Yeah, you, like, tie my hands and I can't talk anymore. I have to write.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: But then I think the real question is, I think that the trick, maybe the heart of the question is that writing is like a communication, Right. So it's that I have something to say, which means that there needs to be someone to hear it. And so the frustration that you have but not being published is that then that communication is unsatisfied because you've said the thing and then nobody's actually receiving it. You know what I mean? So they're not having their own relationship with your work. And so that's the part that I think can get really sad, like, regardless of whether or not you have, like, huge, like, you know, I mean, I think as a writer, people don't tend to make a lot of money as writers. It's just a rare thing if you were to just like, hit it big. So you're not going to like this to get rich. Right. But like, to, to communicate. And so I think that's, that's maybe the thing that's like, you know, when do you give up? Like, you don't. Why would you give up? Right? I don't know. I, I couldn't, I couldn't stop writing books even if, like, if I never got published. And I think that's the trick for me is to think the thought, like, you know, like, who am I doing it for? Like, why, why do I. Do I have things I need to say? You know, and so I'm. I'm just gonna keep writing until the day I die, even if I never get published again.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I, it, for me, it's. I don't know. People risk regular jobs. I don't know if you have a regular or.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Yes, I do.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And people talk about, oh, one day I'll take my cousin, who's who. He's like, counting the days until retirement.
And I, I, I. You'd have to keep pull me kicking and screaming to retire from the writing business. There's no way. No, I, I love it. I do it. And I, I also agree with Wayne Dyer. I can't not do it. Yeah. There's been times where I thought, like, no, no, no, I'm done. I just, I can't. I'm not doing this anymore.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: As a matter of fact, like, the best writing I do is procrastination. Writing is like, when I have to, like, do other tasking. You know what I mean? When I'm working, like, a job where I have to do something that's like, really technical or, like, nitpicky. And then. And it's like, oh, my gosh. The best writing I ever do is, like, when I'm supposed to be doing that, you know? So I always kind of say that I write in the margins of my life, you know, because until recently, like, I wasn't writing full time. I was like, I was doing other stuff full time and then writing Whenever I could. Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah. That's interesting you say that. I remember. I can remember very specifically I was living in San Francisco. Then I had a job in Berkeley. There was a. There was a BART train, a tram that takes 24 minutes. I remember because I was. It was the most efficient 24 minutes of my day.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: You were just like, yeah, this is my.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: And there's like, there's no writer's block. There's no doubt. It's just go. Yeah, your mind's like this the time. Get going.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Right, right. And it's really funny. Like, one of the tricky bits too is like, I mean, I've like read about like, you know, Ursula Le Guin and like all these different writers who have. Or Stephen King and they have like their schedule, their writing schedule. And that was always mysterious to me because I was like, well, you just kind of write all the time, right?
So I think. But it's different if it's a full time job, right? Because then you have to. How to like. Because I think when I do it as an escape, it's just a different dynamic, right? Like, because I have to do other stuff and I just. I'm like, I got to get away and I got to write, you know. Yeah, but. But yeah, I don't know. It's like, I like when you, when you write, are you like, do you. I mean, you just have things that have to come out of you. Is that what's. Is that what's happening?
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I often talk about sort of like a car has an exhaust pipe or a drain, or a sink has a drain, or even a body is a little more too much information. But a body you have to take in, you have to let it out. Right? And. And if you don't, you know, bad things will happen.
Your car will explode, you will explode. So you gotta let it out. And then for me, it's also just therapy. It's.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Oh, it is. Yeah. It's like also sometimes I don't know what I think about something until I write it down. Like, it's my way of processing, which is why I kind of like, I've been really like chat GPT and stuff. I find it to be like, I don't, like, I don't use that for my writing simply because, like, I want to wrestle with the thought and figure out what is it I really mean here, what is that I really want to say, like, what are the right words that express this? And so kind of like, you know, I don't want to outsource that part. That's the fun part.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Okay, so speaking of CHAT GPT and speaking of book number two that your editor said was weird.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: I've been having a lot of fun with ChatGPT with. Because I tend to have oddball ideas.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: Many people think they're oddball, and I don't. I'm. This is totally normal. What's wrong? What's wrong with you? But so I put some of my oddball ideas for ChatGPT. It's really helped me.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: It's a great brainstorm, buddy, isn't it?
[00:11:25] Speaker A: For everything.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: It's great brainstorming. I love it as. Yeah. Really well educated friend. They're a way like 2am you're just like, I want to know what was the state of covert operations in Europe in the 1950s? Right. And you just have a conversation, so.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Or I don't know how much you want to go down the Chatbots path here, but you can. If you have a pro account, you can upload stuff, right. And it has this sort of memory of you and whatever you've uploaded. So it's gotten to the point where I've uploaded a few of my books.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: And I. It can say, hey, based on, like, book, you know, 2, 3, and 6, or I don't even have to say that. I can just say, based on what you now know of me, what could. What should I do in this situation? Or something like that.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, you mean with the book? Like, plot wise?
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Or. Or nonfiction wise. Or what would be a good finish for this story based on what you already know of me, of my books?
[00:12:30] Speaker B: So does that weird you out, though? Does that. I mean, how does that feel for you? Like, I think I would feel like.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Ah, ah, like, so again, okay. All right, I'm just gonna tell you some of my weird ideas.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Tell me. Yeah, I want to hear.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Because, for example, I had a. A course at time. I. I'm like, I've done stand up comedy. I do improv comedy. And I like lightness and laughter. I mean, hey, I'm. I am born in America after also, and especially you and I both live in the net now. Northern. In northern Europe, a little more serious.
And so I like lightness and fun and lightheartedness. And so I had a program for a while called as a writer coach, how to write your best book ever.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: And very quickly, it just fell to pieces because of procrastination and perfectionism, and we were never finishing the thing. And so Funny guy here. I said, you know what I'm going to do? Because I was really kind of frustrated. Yeah, I'm very much doer, doer, doer. Go, go, go. Right. Get it done. Wake up early. Write a lot or whatever. Very production. And so I created a program called how to write your worst book ever.
And it turns people are like, bradley, what are we talking about now? What are you going on about? And so. But the people who kind of got it, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I think I know what you're getting at here. And so we actually did it. I've run workshops now, right. Worst book ever. I have like covers. Covers have to be bad, by the way, in like comic Sans font and stuff. It has to be bad.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: But the goal, the goal of it was to finish something, to accomplish something.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Just get past that sort of internal hurdle. You have to just do it. Just do the thing. It's kind of like when you're learning to ski, like, if you're not falling down, you are not pushing yourself. You've got to let yourself fall down. And maybe that's what you're talking about with that, that book that my agent hated was. It's like, regret it. I don't regret it at all. And I actually don't think it's a terrible book. It's weird. It's weird, but it's like I wanted to, like, I wanted to explore this thing that's like, okay, whatever, you know, it's, it's a weird thing, but why not, you know? Yeah. And make the, make all the mistakes, right? Yeah.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: I like your skiing, your skiing thing. It's funny, somebody said the exact same thing the other day. The. If you're not falling down, you're not learning or you're not trying hard enough or you're not pushing yourself enough.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. We're so careful and I think especially when there's like a, when we have some sort of a shame based education system, right? Where you're just like, where you're, you're shamed for not being good enough, for not having the right answer or whatever, like you kind of tend to sort of internalize that and then you carry those voices inside with you. And so if you bring those voices with you when you're writing, that's like a very dangerous situation to be. Right? And so I've. Fortunately, I don't have that when I write. The problem is when I'm editing, right. Because like, I have to sort of switch my perspective. And now I'M in editor mode, right? And so when I'm in editor mode, I'm very critical. And sometimes I can like, you know, fine tune something too much to the extent that it loses all the meaning to it. Right. And so there's that piece about like, you're just like, well, am I being too careful? Right? No, no, no. Like, don't be so precious with yourself. You know, it's a really great, great view.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: You've got these great quotes. I'm gonna steal them.
Don't be so precious with yourself. I like that. Yeah. So I've lived in, in northern Europe for like, I think it's like 14 years now, total. I lived in Germany for a while. I'll never forget. He was a. He was a good friend of mine, but he was technically my boss in Germany. And so. And at the company, I had to say Z. I had to say the formal you to him. Right? And I thought it was so weird, especially it's like casual Californian American dude.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Right? Right.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: It was really weird. And I'll never forget one. I'll never forget this moment. I'm at the copy machine, which is like the extent of my job, by the way, is super high levels. But I'm at the coffee machine and I do something terribly wrong and I don't know, it spits out all the wrong stuff. So I made a mistake, right? And so I was laughing not only with myself, but at myself that I made a mistake. And my dear German friend, who is a friend to this day, by the way, he was so taken aback. He's like, wait a minute, you made a mistake and you're laughing at yourself, was so hard for him to comprehend.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. That because critical, right?
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: To be able to just like, to not. What is it like, I. I find one of the things I thought is really interesting. So part of my previous life, I worked as an analyst for the United States Navy. And I would deploy with like, you know, deploy on Navy ships and stuff like that. And some of the most interesting folks that I ever worked with is I was some work with some off the coast of Tanzania on board. Actually it was a Dutch ship, the Rotterdam. And I was working with some of these frogmen, right? These are the guys that were actually actively fighting piracy in the Horn of Africa, right? These guys were so cool. And. And the thing that I was really struck by was that, I mean, they took the job super seriously, right? Like, when it came down to business, they were gonna, they're gonna get business done and they did not take themselves seriously. Right? So I find it's really interesting is that when the stakes are really high, like you kind of have to unload and actually not take yourself as seriously. So I always kind of find it really telling when people take themselves really seriously. Because I'm just like, okay. Because to me, when you see people who actually have those intense, really operational jobs and they don't take themselves seriously, I don't know, I just, I find that to be really refreshing and really interesting lesson about life in general. Right. So like, do the job. Do the job well. But like laugh at yourself at the copy machine, right? Like you're allowed to do that, Right. I think that's great.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And you're allowed to. Your editor says your book is weird and yet you keep, you keep going.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: And then, and what, what do you think this is your, this May the Wolf die. That's your seventh, you said it's the.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Seventh book I've written. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: So overall I really loved it. Especially like for the conference on Thursday. Can be a lot of aspiring writers. I think there's a good mix of like, I have a book idea to like, I'm writing to. I have lots of books already and so it's, it's just, I think it's so hopeful for you to say, yeah, here's my New York Times.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: It's my first. No, it's my first. It's my debut novel. Right. So I actually, it's the first published book, but it's the seventh book I've written. Right. So it's my first book. Right. But it's not the first book I've tried to write.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah, but I think that's very important because if people are, they're striving for that perfection for that first book, that's the greatest thing of all time. And then, and sorry for the bad news, but the greatest thing of all time, it's you're going to be on your deathbed and you're still going to be like with the little red.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: But it's like, why would we think that somehow we would magically just be good writers, right? Like if you're going to go be an engineer, right, like you're just going to like, you have to go through and you have to practice and you have to make mistakes and learn and learn and learn. And so I kind of feel like, okay, so the book. So I just finished writing. Okay, so there's May the Wolf Die and then it's a series. It's a seven book series. That I have, like, sort of planned out and everything. And so Penguin has already commissioned the second book. So the second book.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: This is book one.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: So book one.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: And then. So the second book is. The second book in the series is the one I just finished writing. So I just finished writing book number two in the series and, you know, and kicked it to my. And my editor just gave me back the changes. And I've spent the last three months just absolutely buried. Like, just. Just totally turtling and just hermitting and doing this. This work on it.
And so this is. This is what I've done. And it's. And it's like, I wrote this book, and it's kind of at the outside edge of my own capability and skills. Right? But that's great because I want the next book to be better, but I want my capability and skills to be better. Do you know what I mean? It's like every book I write, I want to have it be super hard to write, that I want to improve as a writer so that it get. You know what I mean? Like, I don't.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: And I think you can only do that by writing books, right? That's. That's how you get better. You just write the next book. So I don't feel bad about, like. And if I write. And honestly, like, I mean, I'm super glad she doesn't think it's garbage. Right? But, like.
But, like, I want to just do the next one. Right? And maybe. And so it's a journey. It's about, like, improving my skills as an author, you know? And so, you know. Yeah. I mean, when I wrote Made the Wolf Die, it was the best book I could write at the time, you know, but hopefully. Hopefully 10 years from now, the best book I can write is a lot better than that book.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: You just had another one. You said it was the best book I could write at the time with. With worst book ever. I actually would like everybody to write it every year because I want it to be the book at the time.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And this is so powerful, what you said. This is the best book I could write at the time. It's not. I'm gonna work now for 10 years, and then it'll be the best book in 10 years. You're a different person in 10 years.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Right. You evolve. Like, I'm so different than I was Like. Yeah. In my early 30s or my 20s or, you know, even my early 40s. You know, it's like my. You know, like, what. You know, and the things that I thought about and the things that I wanted to say. And my perspective on life has changed too.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: So when I go back and I read that book I wrote when I was 21, it's like, oh, my gosh, my. My life experience is different. My understanding of people is different. You know, but you. But if you read some of your favor authors, the same thing is true. Like, one of my favorite authors is John Leare. And I read the very first book I read of his was the one. First one he wrote, which was the Spy who Came in from the Cold. And so he wrote. Or he wrote that in his late 20s. Right. And I. I hated it. And the reason I hated it was because I didn't like the female character. I was like, ah, this guy doesn't know how to write women. He just doesn't get it. Right. And so I was very like. I was just like, I don't want to. I don't like. Don't. I don't like John Lecrae. And so then. Then years later, I picked up the Constant Gardener, which he'd written much later in life. Oh, it's just beautifully done. Right. And his characterization was just incredible. And then, of course, you know, like you. I read like, you know, Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, and Smiley's people, basically everything else that Le Carre has written. And his characterization is just like, he grew so much as a writer and as an under, you know, like, studying human nature. And it was just. And so it's just beautiful to sort of see that evolution. So I hope that that's what I'm doing too, is that I'm evolving, like, in my understanding of my. And other people and also evolving as a writer, too. And I think hopefully that gets reflected in what I write.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Wow. You know, that's so inspirational. And to think also that you're evolving all the time and. And you've had this. This smash hit, and you're evolving. You're gonna be better. And the next one's gonna be even better.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: I hope so. Yeah. That's the plan. That's the plan. Well, when I. When I plotted this seven book series, like, I know. I know where my characters are gonna end up in book seven. Right. And I already know. I can tell you right now, if you want me to write book seven right now, I couldn't do it. Right. Like, it's gonna. It's gonna require a level of understanding and skill that I don't currently have. So it's like, it's a leap of faith, right? I'm like, I'll get there. I just. I gotta keep going and I'll get there naturally. You know, I can't just jump into book seven right now. Yeah.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: It's really fun talking with you. This is really cool.
I hope we're inspiring for listeners or viewers to come on Thursday. And if you missed on Thursday, there'll probably be another one. But just also, just in general from two authors here who clearly are never going to stop writing no matter what.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: And that's the fun part, right, Is we get to see other people who are also writers. This is such a solitary activity. So this is just a joy to talk to you. This is so fun.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: So can you give us a little teaser about what is your therapy? The panel. I think you're at a panel, right? Yeah. What is that about on Thursday?
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is like the panel I'll be on is discussing like, traditional versus non traditional publishing. And so because my book was published by Penguin, that's the traditional route. You know, I swear I got an agent and it was. It was shopped out and it was published by a large publishing house. And so. So what does that process look like versus, you know, of course, what do you do if you go self publishing or indie publishing? Like, what does that look like? What does that feel like? What is the level of effort? And I'm curious too, because I only have that one side of the experience. And so just talking to you has been really interesting as well to find out, like, you know, what is your process for that? And so I'm just finishing, like I said, I'm finishing all the edits for book number two in the Nikki Serafino series. And it's a tremendous amount of work. And I just kind of would. I want to touch bases with other writers and find out, like, what's your editing like? Like, how does that feel? Like, what do you do? And then the actual, like, you know, like, how do you get to have the book in your hands? And you know, like even because I know that there's one of the major differences is probably with marketing, right? Does that sound about right? Is like that. And so like, you know, but I think that I just kind of curious to see what matches up along the way, you know, So I think that's going to be fun. It's going to be really great to talk to these other panelists and find out about their experiences. And then hopefully the writers that attend can kind of have it in their mind, like, what is the right path for me and for the book I want to write or the book that I've written already.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. I'm looking forward to meeting you on Thursday.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: I'm looking forward to meeting you, too.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. And if you're watching this and it's past Thursday, well, you can go to Story Houseworks. It's an Amsterdam company who helps actually authors with all the kinds of stuff we're talking about. And if there's no scheduled conference on the books, then go bug Hannah Huber and say, hey, we need another conference in Amsterdam.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, she's fabulous.
I'm sure she'll accommodate at some point because she's amazing.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's gonna be great. Cool. Well, thanks so much for talking today, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in person if you're watching. Looking forward to seeing you if you come by. And thanks again, Elizabeth. It's been a joy talking with you.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Thank you very much. And I look forward to seeing you Thursday.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Great. Bye for now.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Bye.
